Sandbox Romants: Wooing and Problems

Girl Problems, Boy Problems, Problem Problems, OK Misanthropods: put it all here.

Someone wants to go on a date with me. I said I was kind of busy right now, and he said, "Good, how about Wednesday?" which makes me wonder how he scored on reading comprehension.

If I didn't know it was ridiculous, I might panic? At the thought of a date with a total stranger.

wednesday ≠ right now, tho

Seriously, give him a chance to write you another sentence, at least!

He might be a cretin, but another sentence will tell you that definitively.

Actually, that might not be enough, but you know what I mean ;)

I haven't said no! I will go out with him, probably.

I said I was kind of busy right now

Is this a euphemism for, "Are you out of your fucking mind?" Or are you actually too busy at this 'moment' of yet-to-be defined duration which, in his eagerness to woo you, he feels may be over by Wednesday?

Well, I said I had to finish re-finishing the bathroom first, and then I'd be able to relax and do stuff. And he said, in sort of an ESL way, "Ah you have done some experiment with the walls of your bathroom?" so I'm thinking a) He may be French, and b) he doesn't realize I have like 4 days' worth of work to do.

I can work it out, it's just a drink, jeez. I was just surprised by how momentarily trapped and uncomfortable I felt when I thought about it.

yeah, i had trouble reading btwn the lines with those kind of replies iirc

A girl once told me she was washing her hair when i asked her to the cinema, i was crushed. Two years later she told me she was actually washing her hair that night and had kinda expected me to ask again.

I thought 'washing yr hair' was about as clear as it got, tbh

I've been living alone for a couple of weeks now and I realize it's actually terrible for me--I want to be home all the time, and when I go out, it kind of gives me anxiety to speak to people, even to hear them walking toward me on the street? I've never felt quite like this before.

Yes, all of you for whom this is perfectly normal may now point and laugh.

I thought 'washing yr hair' was about as clear as it got, tbh

I'd like to kiss you, but I just washed my hair. (B. Davis)

how do i find daet?
how girl get pragnant?

sandbox let us help u

I thought 'washing yr hair' was about as clear as it got, tbh

I'd say it depends on what kind of hair she has. If it's dreadlocks, for example, it might genuinely mean she can't make it to a movie after washing and drying them.

That said, I would've interpreted this as a turn-down as well.

At some point in mid-20th century USA, "I'm washing my hair" became the stock bullshit excuse to avoid going on a date with someone. Kind of how "I have a headache" is the stock excuse (in sitcoms anyway) that beleaguered wives use to avoid having sex with their husbands. So I would have taken "I'm washing my hair" to be a dis, for sure.

Interesting that both of these grew out of the assumption that women can't/won't just say "No thanks" to something they don't want to do.

i'd say it's not so much that assumption so much as an assumption that ppl in general won't straight-out say 'i'm not going to go out with you' if they can employ a well-understood euphemism

Interesting that both of these grew out of the assumption that women can't/won't just say "No thanks" to something they don't want to do.

no, they grew out of the idea that women don't want to tell their husbands that they don't want sex with them

men do this too, don't you watch seinfeld?

Using little white lies to avoid stark emotional unpleasantness is pretty universal imho

yeah I can't believe this whole "faking an illness to get out of work" thing was created under the assumption that people could not say to their bosses that they didn't want to go to work, I find that so very interesting as well

That's where "Good, how about next wednesday" came from.

or powdering your dick with bayer aspirin.

IIRC, for women, washing their hair used to be a once-a-week chore with several different sudsing-up with hand soap and rinsings to wash out all of the grease, hair spray, cigarette smoke, and whatever.

yeah, too bad for those mad men playboys who kept asking dames out on tuesday night dates.

Wtf at tt suddenly. Calling in sick to work, whether the illness is real or exaggerated, is an avoidance of yr obligations in a way that not returning someone's interest in a daet is not.

Unless you wanted to imply that women ARE obligated to agree to daets, which would be supporting the other point (and I'm sure you didn't mean that, but your parallel is bullshit).

(The wash-your-hair-once-a-day thing was pretty well established by the Mad Men period, so it really was just an excuse by then.)

Using little white lies to avoid stark emotional unpleasantness is pretty universal imhop

I think M White is otm in any case, but there's def a perceived burden on wimmens to give dudes a chance even if they're not very, or at all, interested.

Actually, the thing is that until very recently we were raised to never give a direct 'no' to anyone, even each other.

I'd say historically men have asked women out on dates more than the converse. Many women, for a variety of reasons, didn't wish to respond that they weren't at all interested, if only to spare the guy's feelings. They had to 'wash their hair'. Clever guys got it and were grateful for the gesture. Dense ones didn't but were equally spared. Guys in similar situations often do the same thing. "Hey, wanna join the guys and get some beers and play pool?" "Nah, man, I gotta wash my hair." "Wtf, bro?"

but there's def a perceived burden on wimmens to give dudes a chance even if they're not very, or at all, interested.

I've never seen it, personally, but then I wouldn't want ot go on a date w/anyone who wouldn't want to go w/me anyway so I always took a polite 'no' perfectly in stride and usually treated anything less than an enthusiastic 'yes' as highly improbable and better not to pursue.

i didnt really have a point at all, its just that saying there some implied idea that women can't say no to whatever is such bullshit, most good women have a sixth sense when it comes to avoiding hurting anyone's feelings and that's really all there is to it. (some men have it too)

remember when we were talking about the Kate B0lick article in The Atlantic last month? I liked a lot of it because I like articles with a lot of historical research, but it was irking me a lot too, the more I thought about it - like, I felt it wasn't actually about me but about a more mythical, or perhaps just tv-like, "30-40-something women" - the whole thing just left me feeling unsettled in a non-helpful way. anyway, i thought this was a good response: http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cifamerica/2011/nov/29/single-women-an-american-obsession?

most good women have a sixth sense when it comes to avoiding hurting anyone's feelings

Is this...are you doing this on purpose?

Are you frogbs?

It's not a sixth sense, it's taught and frankly I wish it were taught to more boys.

either way. you know what I mean. sorry if I hurt your feelings.

My feelings are the least of your problems (and they're uninjured, thanks).

sorry if I hurt your feelings.

bet you wish you were a good woman now.

boy, do I. someday we'll live in a classless society. until then, I'll sit in the corner.

why dont you post what you really feel, Pyth. get it all out in the open

For clarification, I was referring to the way women are socialized to be compliant and not say no or hurt people's feelings. If you want a workplace parallel, women's tendency to accept lowball salary offers insead of negotiating for higher pay seems more apt (because it is part of the socialized compliance thing, not because women are innately incapable of salary negotiations).

I am actually engaged in an email convo with a lady friend who is ginning up the courage to call and cancel her cable because she knows they are going to give her the hard sell and she's afraid she won't be able to say no to the $200/month package. (tbf she is an extreme example and Comcast is a three-headed dragon of pressure.)

wishing i could suggest ban j0n arbubckle right now

otm

I hate saying no/hurting ppl's feelings

I think its way more "women are socialized to be able to say no to something without hurting anyone's feelings" rather than them being socialized to not say no, period

Perhaps, though that is often a distinction w/out a difference.

I mean, I'm a guy and I've been asked out by people that I don't really like and my natural instinct is to give them the runaround rather than flat out deny them, I don't think it's objectionable to say that women are generally better at that kind of stuff

I like that CiF response to the Kate B0lick article!

I felt it wasn't actually about me but about a more mythical, or perhaps just tv-like, "30-40-something women"

this encapsulates my problem with it really well! I understood and recognised and was sympathetic to the situation in it, because I'm familiar with it from media, but... i sort of can't believe in it, at the same time? I have seen a lot of tv programmes in which mothers are all 'did you know [foo] has two children now, when are you going to meet a nice boy/girl and settle down' but I have never met a person who's said their mother says that. sometimes my mother says 'i met [bar]'s mother the other day, did you know [bar] has two kids now' and i say 'jesus, already?' and my mother says 'it's not really that unusual, dear', but... that's about as far as it goes.

i guess i feel like articles/tv shows/other media in which women are still concerned with finding someone "marriageable" (beyond, like, 'not abusive' and 'has mutual feelings about you', which i like to think are minimums) reinforce the idea that this v limited idea of "marriageability" is/has been/remains a normal concept? even when the ostensible message of the article is "let's change our ideas about marriage and 'marriageability'"?

I meet women w/some desperate need to validate their life through timely marriage and optimal wedding far, far too much.

ditto.

i never do! i mean, i meet people who want to ~get married~, sure, but this kind of rom-com mindset, no. unless they're all too afraid of offending me to say it?

I even had one say to me, "Oh, you're divorced? Well, at least you got married." I backed out of that conversation very soon afterwards.

Maybe I should go into the consulting business teaching people how to say no. I'm really really good at it!

My workshops will start with the beginning intro to to the Human Beinz "Nobody But Me"
and then I prance onstage and teach everyone how to say no by offering them outrageous things and having them practice their no skills.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nxtJoGdujYo

I'm really really good at it!

I've said this before but I learned how to say no politely but firmly from a French lady. It's quite liberating.

See even though I've tried not to be, the joke's on me and I am totally one of those women, only it has stealth-neurosis powers and didn't spring until a couple of years ago and then SURPRISE!

So I p much took the B0lick article at face-value where perhaps I shouldn't have; I'm glad to have this counterpoint. Thanks, rrrob!

LL: Would attend all sessions of that class, with pressures increasing from "Would you like to clean rat's cages for minimum wage on Mars?" to "If you were a good woman, you would know that your behavior is inappropriate and I expect you to change that if you really love me." That would be the advanced skill level, presumably.

I expect you to change that if you really love me

LOL/sad

I meet women w/some desperate need to validate their life through timely marriage and optimal wedding far, far too much.

― M. White, Wednesday, November 30, 2011 6:41 PM (16 minutes ago) Bookmark Permalink

as a single woman in her 30s i have people (male and female) project this desire on me all the time and it really angers me.

i don't have any desire for marriage or children. at all. but people are completely clouded by the fact that is what i am supposed to want and don't listen to the actual words that come out of my mouth on this subject.

I'm sorry, did you say something?

<3 <3 <3

Exactly, Laurel -- first you refuse things that are easy to refuse (would you like to smell my foot? would you like a bite of this heavily mayonnaised chipped ham sandwich with mold on it?), and it gets more and more challenging based on the questionnaire you filled out at the beginning of the seminar.

To be fair, I also have no trouble agreeing to things and am not a negative person at all -- in fact, I'm pretty game, for the most part! I just feel very little pressure to acquiesce when I don't wish to do something, either in the work sphere or the personal sphere. If I do acquiesce after refusing initially it's because I probably didn't really want to say no in the first place ;)

at thanksgiving, me and my cousins (all in our early 30s) were actually seated at the kids table, in an entirely diff room. my aunt dropped her 7 year old kid off with us, saying 'ok, mommy's going to go hang out with the adults now'. when getting more food, my cousin reported that the "adults" were saying that we gotta start having kids soon.

i'm in the same boat as you, b_g, and i fear i'll be seated at the kids table till i'm 60!

It's fine to want to be married. It's fine to want kids. It's the neurotic desire to do it willy-nilly like it will 'fix' your life that freaks me out. As if not keeping up with the Joneses or not landing any husband, regardless of your long-term compatability, is some freakish loser thing to do. If the Joneses are your standard, you've lost already and marrying fools isn't exactly some rare achievement.

I'm perfectly fine with the kids table; they still have to serve me wine and I have less competition for th bottle. Plus the conversation isn't as inane.

Also, I have been kind enough to give my parents perfectly adorable grand-cats for years now and if that's not enough, I'm not sure what they'd think of any human grandchildren I might sire.

My mother's not happy with me for not having children, but she doesn't talk about it much. (My sister has three and my brother has two. Three of them are married--all of my grandnieces and grandnephews are in their mid to late twenties--so she should even have great-grandchildren before she dies.)

I'm from a cadet branch so I really don't see the need. ;)

yes, i have produced a lovely grand-cat that my mother dotes upon with fancy cat food from wholefoods.

Wow. My mother actually refers to our dogs as her granddogs.

i kinda feel that the concept of marriage as a whole is probably on the outs anyway, anyone who seriously says "you're in your 30's, why aren't you married yet?" is almost definitely a sitcom character written by someone with a 1950's view of marriage

Or an older family member.

I'm perfectly fine with the kids table; they still have to serve me wine and I have less competition for th bottle. Plus the conversation isn't as inane.

i agree with this! i didn't mind it until the aunt came in w/her kid. probably because i've found her horribly condescending my own childhood.

Or a features editor at a women's magazine.

xp unless it applies to your aunt.

also the idea that i can't be considered an adult until i am married really bugs

My stepdad's family is 100% "girls aren't grown until they are married" and when I was in my late 20s, unmarried, and relegated to the kids' table, my mom threw a shit fit on my behalf, which I've always appreciated even though she was perpetrator #1 of the "when are you going to get married???!?????" pressure. (I chalk a little of that up to her just wanting me to settle down (as in quit being an irresponsible drunkard) and assuming that marriage was the only way than her necessarily believing I was an incomplete person when single.)

For clarification, I was referring to the way women are socialized to be compliant and not say no or hurt people's feelings

i was with you until this...

You were with me until I restated what I meant in one sentence? So you disagree with me? Or should I keep guessing here?

xp Yeah. Anyone who tries to speak about all women cannot be thinking very clearly. Lack of qualifiers is a boo-boo.

I… identifying an existing societal pressure is not the same as saying all women are a certain way? And I never said that?

we're constantly badgered about getting married- almost exclusively from wives/girlfriends of my friends (though i get it at work from the matronly members of staff too). Sometimes it's like a frenzy in group settings.

"Women are complaint and never say no or hurt people's feelings." (not what I said)

vs

"Women are socialized to be complaint and not say no or hurt people's feelings." (what I said)

So a woman who says 'no' when she doesn't want something is not very well-socialized, I suppose.

All of the women I met in my early twenties were happy with me for not wanting children, but they all figured that I didn't want them because I didn't want them Growing Up In A World With War, Pestilence, And Bill Clinton Getting Blowjobs From His Staffers. Phooey.

Is the sandbox making everyone bizarro?? Aimless, who in the world ever said that? Also you're combining/mixing up meanings of "socialized", and you know it.

i just think you're overgeneralizing a bit, jenny. it's not "women are socialized to be compliant" it's more "lots of people are generalized to be compliant, many of them women"

Remy and Aim: do you seriously want to argue that there is not a social norm for women that involves being agreeable and helpful and accommodating to others more than is expected for men? And that this expectation for women extends to how women are, in general, expected to react to wooing?

Maybe I'm not grokking where everyone is coming from here because I'm really surprised at both or you.

Dude. We are having a miscommunication. Let me try to draw a parallel.

I make this statement: "Men are socialized to hide their emotions."

What this means is that there is pressure in our society for men to hide their emotions, not cry in public, etc etc. This does not mean that no men cry or that men who cry are poorly socialized.

So when I say women are socialized to be compliant, I mean that there is pressure in our society for women to be agreeable or at least say no gently. One example: women who are not compliant are called bitches or harridans. This does not mean that all women are agreeable or that disagreeable women are poorly socialized.

Now, if you disagree that that such societal pressure exists, that's a different conversation.

i want to go back to giving unsolicited dating advice :(

Jesus McKinnon Christ. Saying that women face a particular pressure does not mean that men don't also face a similar pressure. That is a massive logical fallacy.

It might also be worth noting that the ppl in this thread who are saying "yes this pressure exists in a way that is specifically targeted at women" ARE WOMEN and the ppl saying "What? No! That doesn't happen" are men. Who do you suppose has more firsthand experience with this phenomenon?

Pyth, I understand that a certain amount of social pressure is placed on women to avoid social friction and that this pressure can sometimes include pressure to avoid friction through self-abnegation, but saying that is, imo, a far cry from what thejenny said.

But I don't see this as the social norm and I can't recall it ever being a general rule in my lifetime. I wasn't alive in 1900, but I can tell you that a substantial number of the women I've known had no trouble standing up fior themselves.

... as thejenny is doi9ng this moment.

You are making my head hurt.

It's gotten a lot better in the last few decades, but the pressure is still there.

I don't know, Christine. Aimless says it isn't and I'm arguing with him so… That's infallible logic.

Aimless, Remy, I am being sarcastic in my previous post, FYI.

My point is that the socialization is much less strong than you have portrayed it, and that although it may have qualified as a social norm in the past, it is not a norm at present, but a fading influence that is increasingly easy to overcome. As for the claim I said that it is non-existant, I could quote myself back at you, if you think that's necessary.

you know what improved my ilxing 100%? staying away from gender stuff.

HEY WOMEN, LET ME MANSPLAIN THIS FOR YOU...

You know one of the things rrrobyn is awesome at? Saying she doesn't like something and asking someone to change it, firmly, without either escalating the situation or apologizing for her request or her personal needs. And the fact that I think it's kind of amazing should tell you that ime is it not a common skill, this freedom that she feels to have needs and ask people to meet them.

I have a feeling LL may also excel at this, but I haven't personally seen it in action so I can't speak for her necessarily

HEY WOMEN, LET ME MANSPLAIN THIS FOR YOU...

OTM x ∞

and also

wishing i could suggest ban j0n arbubckle right now

it really isn't a common skill, when friends of mine can do this i always which day i missed at school.

when they do it gracefully i wonder if i didn't miss a whole month

I am pretty good at that. Could always use some improvement in the tone department, I'm sure, but who doesn't.

My point is that the socialization is much less strong than you have portrayed it, and that although it may have qualified as a social norm in the past, it is not a norm at present, but a fading influence that is increasingly easy to overcome.

I disagree with this entirely.

I think it's still very much a social norm and while I'm sure it's somewhat easier to overcome now than it was decades ago I think you're making it sound far easier than it really is.

Also I only read like the last 10 posts here so I might be missing something.

ehh, i was going to explain what i meant, which was partly due to cross-conversiational confusion, and partly not, but i'm afraid i'm gonna be called out for mansplaining or have somebody else snap at me. so, suffice to say, i'm bummed at the way this conversation went and feel like i'm gonna, yeah, back down feel like any actual honest point i might have made because it's just gonna get snarked at anyway.

aw shit, I'll make one last observation before the last person tunes me out entirely. I propose that each of the women who think I am full of crap because I can't have a valid opinion on this to reflect a moment.

First ask yourself: do I find myself sometimes thinking 'no', but couching my response in vague terms in order to be more pleasant? I'm pretty sure every one of you will answer: yes, I do this.

Next, ask yourself: do I find myself going along with what someone else wants, even when I know the result of doing so is going to make me unhappy, distressed or dissatisfied? My guess is that, once there are real emotional chips in the pot, most of you (not all, perhaps) will find a way to overcome that socialization and seek what you need, even at the risk of unpleasantness.

If I am correct, then this bogeyman of socialization is really not so very bad, because it mostly kicks in when the stakes don't matter. When they do, you blow right by it and come to grips with the situation.

Feel free to tell me I am wrong in this, but that is what I observe to be true. Even though I am, sadly, ill-equipped.

Now I'm done. (zips lips)

there is not a social norm for women that involves being agreeable and helpful and accommodating to others more than is expected for men?

Era, culture, religion, language, region and class, pls?

Also, Aimless lives in Portland. Results may vary in other areas/ages/socio-economic strata than yours

Ppl like this do things like that (mostly)

caveat emptor, etc...

Anyway...I'm still too nervous to date in this college town after my last bad experience. I started writing to my long-distance crush again. She wrote a brief reply indicating that she doesn't hate me. I guess that counts as a victory. Work and school are going so well right now, I feel like I may be happy to continue concentrating on that. But I long for affection.

If I am correct, then this bogeyman of socialization is really not so very bad, because it mostly kicks in when the stakes don't matter. When they do, you blow right by it and come to grips with the situation.

This is completely not true at all in my life, or the lives of women I have witnessed/heard from. The plural of stories people tell me is not anec-data, yes I know, but I feel you are enormously overstating the equality of these kinds of pressures and understating the cost to women.

La condition humaine

Break a proverbial leg, Monsieur Farmer

Aimless points to my willingness to argue wih him as proof that I exaggerate the pressure on women to be compliant. Remy characterizes this same argument as snapping and snark.

Interesting.

thejenny, you were being snappy and snarky. to wit:

Aimless, Remy, I am being sarcastic in my previous post, FYI.

― thejenny, Wednesday, November 30, 2011 8:44 PM (45 minutes ago)

no harm/no foul, I don't even really care, and I'm getting out of this conversation from here on out. But please don't string me up for a point I never made. Interesting, my eye.

I mean right here on this thread you have frogsbs exhibiting exactly what I think jenny and I are *both* talking about, when he says "most good women have a sixth sense about avoiding hurting anyone's feelings"!!! How are we even reading the same thread and you (plural) don't seem to be picking up on that at all?! Frogs is a shocking retrograde, I admit, and possibly x% trolling at all times, but I still think he's not un-representative of what some people think.

I think I might add Confidence Building to my seminar/workshop repertoire

Why are you nervous Mr Farmer?

Frogs is possibly a (hardly) shocking retrograde and (per the the thread designation) end up wooing the women he deserves.

He's married. If that is, in fact, him.

not convinced that frogbs is frogbs tbph

Well, he's done his wooing then...

xpost

xp - I was more certain earlier. I have a back-up in mind if it turns out not to be frogs.

Hey Pyth, what're you doing Saturday? ;)

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3289/2968815250_37ce96cb59_b.jpg

helLOO where can i find a Real Man?

Jon Arbuckle what a limp penis!

Painting woodwork and seeing a married friend, in fact!

I thought about saying yes to the daet tonight but you know, it was giving me the anxiety and meant rearranging my schedule and just, no. I shouldn't start out by agreeing to things that make me unhappy, even if it makes me uncomfortable to define that boundary.

Why are you nervous Mr Farmer?
I live in a fishbowl college town and my last dating experience was a disaster. Also, I have very strong feelings for someone who lives 1000 miles away, who I've seen twice in the last eleven months, and I don't have the resources to increase that number. But I can't let go! Sorry, I'm listening to George Michael right now.

guilty feet have got no rhythm

George Michael!

this thread has turned into a shining example of how men are socialized to think they are right all the time and talk over the people, amirite?

:)

no man is ever "Right" enough for me!

I just nuked a kind of hilarous 600 word post on the grounds that somebody might get mad at me. i'm not even good at arguing about gender - i fail at man 101

Painting woodwork and seeing a married friend, in fact!

Lame Melusine reference, sorry

I shouldn't start out by agreeing to things that make me unhappy

Don't be a coward but don't waste anybody's time, either. If you're vaguely interested but not for tonight, don't go; you wouldn't be doing either of you a favor.

this thread has turned into a shining example of how men are socialized to think they are right all the time and talk over the people, amirite?

Or how you should own your own desires and state them, preferably politely, tho

http://leemasaur.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/hedonismbot.jpg

Mr Farmer, do you know what you're looking for?

Companionship? Fucking? An escape fantasy from a 1K distant torch? Someone to dine with? What?

i fail at man 101

Luckily we're all mortals

Or how you should own your own desires and state them, preferably politely, tho

need 2get laid, pls, thx

Lookin for a love that's right for me
I don't know how long it's gonna be

need 2get laid, pls, thx

How's that pu line working for you?

"I say! You wouldn't be interested in a good shag would you, by any chance? Just thought I'd ask."

Lookin for a love that's right for me
I don't know how long it's gonna be
aw i just listened to this song like 1 hr ago

I have lived in a fishbowl college town too, and it sounds like you're healing by hiding out with Ms 1000miles away. Maybe you don't really want to meet anyone right now.

don't look now, there's a monkey on yr back

http://www.jamesfinngarner.com/images/blogimages/monkey-centerfold.jpg

mmm

Have you seen macaque? It's quite sexy.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/52/Macaca_nigra_self-portrait.jpg/425px-Macaca_nigra_self-portrait.jpg

my heart... melts!

ew, more like
http://www.animalcorner.co.uk/wildlife/monkeys/graphics/nwemptam.jpg

^movember winner

I have seen a lot of tv programmes in which mothers are all 'did you know {foo} has two children now, when are you going to meet a nice boy/girl and settle down' but I have never met a person who's said their mother says that.

agreeing w/ ppl who say nah this totally happens, and that Garfield's owner reads like frogbs

I pity the [foo] who has two children now

why do {foo}s fall in love?

forton fears a foo

Lol after reading this thread I'm feeling p good about my sandbox transvestitism*

*real word?

Jesus McKinnon Christ

LOL

i am ready to date a stranger just to see how that works

guys okcupid looks really stupid do i really have to do this

make it a gay date. at the last minute.

i haven't worn my ring for a week and the groove in my finger is still there, i'm sort of enjoying watching it fade and wondering how long it'll take

.....

i dunno i feel guilty for trotting out sad minutiae of sadness but i don't have anybody on hand to bore with this on a daily basis plus it's easier to type it out into a half-void than sit and chew somebody's ear off irl, am doing chirpy blitz spirit there

have been pondering the future possibility of going on a date ever a date...now there's a properly bleak train of thought :-)

ever again i meant

nah it's just hard to know what to say. I'm sorry man.

thx. i think sometimes i just like to think stuff out loud, doesn't have to have a response, doesn't not have to, egotistical fucker that i am. ilx = 10-bob counsellor or something.

a part of me likes starting from first principles, so that's something. am mostly very "what the fuck do i do now?" tho

blue sandboxday thread imo

am toying with it but am busy sorting out my new house and then i think i want blue saterday to be a different thing

you think you have housing troubles, son? i had to remove a crazy cat lady this morning....

i hope things get very good for you and soon, desr nv.

Take your time, NV

Hey kids, remember not to develop a serious crush on someone you work w/ on a daily basis, esp. if they live over 1000 miles away. Because that would be fucking stupid.

Yeah, 'cause crushes are so rational...

i sent an email yesterday to someone at work that i was sorta crushing on. no response yet.

*bites nails*

she probably doesn't even remember who the hell i am. we had lunch in a group setting about a year ago, and she gave me her phone number (i didn't ask for it, i wasn't flirting, and was engaged at the time, so of course i didn't call her or anything)

my only comparative experience to having a powerful crush was the one time i ate half (half!) a tab of acid and proceeded to feel like OMG make it stop OMG make it stop for what seemed like an eternity, hurtling uncontrollably forward in space and time and virtually incapable of steering the ship back in the appropriate direction during a storm of that magnitude.

it can be kinda bad!

i should have had half a tab before sending that email to the work crush person, probably would have been a lot better!

it's hardly a critical juncture though

Goblin Boy is meant to be coming to see me tonight. We're spending the day together tomorrow. I am as desperate for affection as the next aging surfer, and I very much want to see him and get kisses, but can't imagine what good can come of this in the long run and fear I'm just having a post-miscarriage moment of weakness.

Ah what the hell. I'd normally think that gunning for kisses when I don't know what I mean by it is rotten unfair, but this is Goblin Boy, I cba being that sensitive about it.

Dear L___, before I begin, let me just eat half a tab, with the goal of just writing and writing until the effect wears off. *glunk*

So I don't know if you remember me, but last year we...

paragraph2

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there is yet another missing piece in the color puzzle, but given that the puzzle itself is always growing, i couldn't possibly

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i am apart from time and space, but also a part of time and space, and

paragraph5

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i am naked now. i am naked now.

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paragraph8-92

i am so tired. email me back if you want to have lunch sometime

you forgot the dance break and the crying at the edge of the party

Zora -- just let go and have fun. Do whatever moves you.

why is he called Goblin Boy? does he love the band?

having a huge crush and dropping acid at the same time is probably what sent mr adorable here down the rabbit hole
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_LANuzRARDf4/S6BM6JXcx4I/AAAAAAAAANM/vaNXYS2HdRI/s320/Syd%252BBarrett.jpg

and then he wrote "I really love you, and I mean you!"

and called it Terrapin.

Oh Zora, I missed out on hearing it was a miscarriage after all when ilx was down... so sorry

and then he wrote "I really love you, and I mean you!"

and called it Terrapin.
ha!

"my hair's on end about you" is more along the lines of what i was thinking
(i'm not even sure if those are the right lyrics, but that's what i have been thinking they were all this time so that's what they are now)

(They are, indeed)

Oh, sorry lebateauivre. Careless dumping of information. Yes I lost the pregnancy. It was nasty at the time and hard afterwards, but after a weekend in hospital with a suspected ectopic I was relieved that it was a very straightforward thing in the end. I'll say no more here, it does belong on TMI! I'm bouncing back.

Z S Goblin Boy just is - a goblin. And a boy. A goblin boy in a man's body.

huge lols at zs's acid e-mail, imagining recipient opening outlook to find ten copies of it sent minutes apart

same

frustrating text exchange at 6:30 am this morning with someone i dig but who has been flaking a bunch (second time this week - i have not seen this person in 3 weeks now):

him: This weekend is turning out to be problematic. why don't you call me tomorrow afternoon and then we can plan a day

me: sounds like i should take the hint already i suppose :/

him: huh? what hint?! i really want to see you!

me: well i know that sometimes when one does not want to see someone but does not want to hurt that person's feelings, they may just cancel cancel plans a lot or never be available...which is normal, everyone does this from time to time

*crickets*

oh no! i don't know, it sounds like he really does want to see you!

his words say that but his actions don't! i don't know, i have been very flexible and accomodating but this is the 4th or 5th time we've had plans that he cancelled (and i have not cancelled on him ever). i mean, if you really want to see someone you make it happen, right?

if you really want to see someone you make it happen, right?

Tbf, we don't know why he flaked previously. Do you?

did you ever end up meeting up with him in between all of the flake-outs?

his words say that but his actions don't! i don't know, i have been very flexible and accomodating but this is the 4th or 5th time we've had plans that he cancelled (and i have not cancelled on him ever). i mean, if you really want to see someone you make it happen, right?

i am into this, btw; w/friendships i think there should be an equal, mutual level of initiating contact w/the other person, even just so you don't get to feeling like things are uneven, questioning how the other person feels or w/e. it's not cool to feel like it's on you, & you shouldn't be reduced to feeling like you have to hassle someone into doing something anyway.

we met up between some of the flakeouts, about 4 times total. and we have been in touch via text a lot...and the things he texts me make me think he really wants to hang out, but then, when it comes time to do that, he backs out! i have no idea why he is flaking this weekend, he didn't even give a reason. on monday we were supposed to hang out but he couldn't because he didn't have enough money to come into the city (he lives off metro north) and i offered to split his ticket cost with him but still no dice. i am pretty sure he had to be in the city anyways for a workshop which is why we made plans for that night and he didn't say anything about that being cancelled. this weekend i was supposed to go where he lives and visit him. it is really annoying because like, i have to plan my whole weekend around hanging out with him and he cancels and it's not cool. i have other stuff i could be doing. well, not really but in theory i COULD and it is not very considerate of my time!

seems pretty inconsiderate, if nothing else

also i didn't like how he cancelled and then asked for you to call him the next day. take some initiative, if you are the one that's cancelling!

lunch confirmed next week with work crush. at least she works at a part of my work that's several blocks away and i never see her normally, so hopefully i'll be able to avoid the pitfalls of liking someone you work with.

I thought you were dating Three Philosophers?

I'm taking a break from all three of the philosophers for tonight. I have a job interview tomorrow morning I need to prepare for, and the philosophers tend to push me into a foolish attempt to read everything that's published on the internet. ever.

why did god invent crushes

they are god's sitcoms

i have to plan my whole weekend around hanging out with him and he cancels and it's not cool.

That is not cool at all.

yeah. i usually have a hardline stance about people respecting my time. it's hard because this guy is kinda totally dreamy but i'm not going to make an exception.

wise. dreamy guys can get spoiled by how they're fawned over.

dreamy guys are socialized to never accept a "no"

that's kinda otm

femsplaining ^

fuck that person who won't respect your time, bene_gesserit

^^ unfortunate undercurrent of ambiguity there

lol

p.s. sarah i didn't think you were really femsplaining, or that femsplaining is a thing, just made me laugh.

I told Ms. 1000 miles away that I want what we've got. And I really do.
When we are together we just talk and talk and talk until we stop talking.
Stop talking for hours.
I've just never had it this bad for someone so far away.
Well, she wrote back and that was great, even though she didn't really reply to my "statement." She has explained that her feelings for me are a tangled mess (hardly surprising as I told her a few months ago that it was all too difficult for me and I want to start dating locally which led to the terrible experience I previously mentioned). She says that's rare for her, she's usually better at reading her emotions on a subject.

I don't know...the whole thing screams "Impossible!" and my only thought is "I want you."

Also, good on you, Z_!

I'd say, if the status quo of being 1000 miles apart is 'impossible', then that's what has to change. There's nothing literally 'impossible' about relocating to be with one another, but it does throw a huge, complex mutual decision right into your path early on that you can't get around without a MAJOR (mutual) committment to solve it.

If that kind of committment proves to be impossible at this stage, then that's the rock where the relationship wrecks. Otherwise, you've got a fighting chance.

(/ms lonelyhearts)

I'm committed to my current location for one more year, for sure. I work full time at a University and I am finishing a Master's in December 2012. She's also steadfast. If I date people locally and all I can do is compare them to her, makes me feel like I am fucking up royally.

yeah i mean, that kind of dedication seems like it's getting moored on a tiny little iceberg like 1000 miles. that's like middle of nebraska to middle of ohio -- not really that far by us flyover country standards!

one year is not forever

1000 miles is nothing, try > 4000.

or alternatively, don't try it, it's harsh.

altho i could move/she could move, and we'll talk about it when we see each other later this month. we've not seen each other since september :/

it's not impossible if you make it a priority. imo anyone in that situation needs to figure how much of a priority a relationship/this relationship is: i don't think it's the same for everyone, and there's nothing wrong with that. is your job, where you live, your social group, etc., more of a priority than pursuing a relationship with this lady? i think either answer to this question is perfectly fine, but i don't think you can move on till you figure it out.

xps

also to bene gesserit: i don't necessarily ~believe~ this but one thing that might have happened is that he took your txt msg about "guess you're not that into me" as being pass-agg - I'M NOT SAYING IT WAS just that he might have interpreted it that way, and that's why he hasn't replied. but then his unexplained flakiness is pretty pass-agg so he's hardly one to judge.

My job and my degree are the most important thing to me right now. I could give a toss about my social group or the community I live in at this point. Beginning to come around to the "willing to wait" point of view. I am ultimately looking for someone to potentially share my life with and she is the best candidate for that, by far.

ok i just got back from a meeting and there are 12(!!!) texts from this person!! i will update after i get through them all.

Hey kids, remember not to develop a serious crush on someone you work w/ on a daily basis, esp. if they live over 1000 miles away. Because that would be fucking stupid.

― Simon H., Thursday, 1 December 2011 15:10 (6 hours ago) Bookmark Permalink

Yeah, 'cause crushes are so rational...

― M. White, Thursday, 1 December 2011 15:12 (6 hours ago) Bookmark Permalink

I was actually talking about myself! I didn't realize someone else on the thread was having this same issue. Sorry for the accidental (apparent) snark.

None taken and I was perhaps a bit snarky myself. I just meant that, well, crushes are often not so rational. Have you ever tried to talk yourself out of one? You can avoid the crushee and whatnot but the douleur exquise persists.

Yeah this is only semi-rational. Unfortunately I'm not in a position to even do the avoiding part, really.

ok i just got back from a meeting and there are 12(!!!) texts from this person!! i will update after i get through them all.

i'm going to assume that these texts vindicate my initial gut reaction (based off of almost zero evidence, and pretty much a guess, essentially) that the dude actually likes you, and is maybe not so good at noticing that his changing of plans and sporadic communication can be interpreted in many ways other than what he intended.

either that, or these 12 texts will indicate that he's a total psychopath!

*popcorn.gif*

b_g, the thing is that you are also totally dreamy and unless he is blind and stupid he must have noticed that? So ZS probably otm, but on the off chance that he IS blind and stupid, let's you and me make plans for a crafty crafts date instead, because we won't cancel on each other.

this thread is heating up!

b_g, the thing is that you are also totally dreamy and unless he is blind and stupid he must have noticed that?

otm

So ZS probably otm

yep, probably otm, otm

but on the off chance that he IS blind and stupid, let's you and me make plans for a crafty crafts date instead, because we won't cancel on each other.

daaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaang!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LqIlnF2zjz8

well, it was all really sweet and sincere (i teared up a little?)
here is a quote since i can't "it breaks my heart a little for you to think i would be the kind of person to just phase you out. that's a horrible thing to do to a person and that has been done to me before. i wouldn't dream of putting anyone through it, especially someone i really really like"

and he is just busy working on his kickstarter campaign or something.

now i feel like a jerk for over-reacting.

but laurel i am still down for a dreamy craft date this weekend with a dreamboat like yourself!

that's so great, b_g. tearing up over texts...that man has some skillz.

well, i'm also pmsing so i am probably capable of tearing up at an auto insurance commercial right now tbqh

i do not have PMS and I cried when i saw mickey rooney during the muppet movie, so i mean hey, b_g, a text cd be like gone with the wind to me

"it breaks my heart a little for you to think i would be the kind of person to just phase you out. that's a horrible thing to do to a person and that has been done to me before. i wouldn't dream of putting anyone through it, especially someone i really really like"

and he is just busy working on his kickstarter campaign or something.

now i feel like a jerk for over-reacting.
--bene_gesserit

Take this with a grain of salt from my cold dead heart but even that message would irritate me a bit, like he is putting the blame on you and making you feel like a jerk with no self awareness about why you might have gleaned that from his behavior. Still, that's only one of the messages and again my heart is cold and dead so you know.

If he hasn't produced concrete real explanations why he's flaked out on you that many times, I don't think he should be off the hook.

Yeah, you should insist on a detailed schedule for the last week; times, addresses, numbers to verify, etc...

oh my heart is cold and dead itself. i remain highly sceptical of emotional outpourings and mawkish gestures due to what happened with that guy who baked me the pie. however, i will give him another chance i suppose.

i read it and it sounded reasonable but then i re-read it in an owen wilson voice and now i'm slightly dubious.

i remain highly sceptical of emotional outpourings and mawkish gestures due to what happened with that guy who baked me the pie

missed this story, enjoying imagining variations on what happened

man if this was old ILX, I would vote for romantic saxophone's gif to be the background and for romantic sax.mp3 to play forever, for this thread

http://www.youtube.com/v/EBM854BTGL0&autoplay=1

:[

I may have over-suggested my availability this weekend, unless you'd like to come craft at my house while I paint woodwork red? No? Ah well.

now YOU'RE flaking on me! NOT YOU TOO!!! TO HELL WITH YOU!

j/k <3

The ilx downtime prevented me from being able to rantbitch about a rather unfortunate fooforaw that happened witn an OKC match I started talking to.

- he added me to FB
- in doing this we discovered he knows my housemates current ladyfriend
- he also mentioned N is "a friend of his"
- some time later he'd given up talking to me, I jokingly enquired why, and got informed it is because he hates N, thinks he's an asshole, thinks he treats his ladyfriend like shit, and assorted other crap I dont wanna get into
- the whole thing turned into a massive drama with N, this guy, N's girl, all getting involved and getting upset, and then as A COMPLETE ASIDE N decided to break up with this woman, as well
- dude then BLOCKS ME ON FB for all this. Because HE called MY best friend an asshole?

... I then deleted my OKC profile. Had enough of ridiculous shit like this happening.

Man how the fuck did any of that become *your* problem?

I KNOW RIGHT!? It went from zero to "woah what the hell am I suddenlyin the middle of!?" within about 2 hours one afternoon, jesus fuck. my housemate was embarrased and apologetic and even his ladyfriend was all "what the hell asshole" to her friend (ie the OKC guy), but yea... bloody hell I attract some weird luck.

and you are better off not knowing this guy

my okcupid luck has been: good

but i am taking it really easy+slow tbh, esp as i've been busy with work/life

I'm havng a walk/picnic in the gardens/photography jaunt with the vegan lad tomorrow, so I at least have a bit of romanting going on!

Luck!

how did n/n's ladyfriend find out about this guy's thoughts?

he told her, I think. It was a load of InstaGossip, which was just incredibly childish.

so he can't even bring you into it that way?

what a knob.

Dude FB blocked me after all this before I even met him, so BZZZT.

Just to be clear: it was OKCupid guy who ran this shit, my house mate was a sitting back going "wtf just happened" person as I was.

3rd date with an OKCupid gal went well

nice!

i signed up for this meetup thing to meet new people but my work is having an impromptu happy hour, and one of the ppl going is quite attractive.

ditch the meetup?

otoh, this thing w/cowkr is never gonna go anywhere, so i should probably just not go, right?

but it'll be fun...

help me decide!

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3133/2611318715_1e0db32614_z.jpg?zz=1

haha.

what i should do vs. what i want to do.

http://profile.ak.fbcdn.net/hprofile-ak-snc4/174888_146267212113179_1729155_n.jpg

One of these days, I'll catch on immediately that Trayce isn't talking about the Sooner State.

Haha :)

I had a perfectly lovely weekend with veganboy (that looks alarmingly like vengaboy) strolling around gardens, taking pix, Metalocalypse marathon, Mitchell & Webb, then mucking around on the Wii all day today, nice!

metalocalypse and mitchell and webb = dream date city!

Haha I know! I wasnt sure he'd be into either: I've had a dreadful time tryng to work out shared taste with this guy (he loves Blackadder but hates Black Books wtf?) but he loved both shows which made my weekend :)

Fuckin love Metalocalypse. Where is man who aims being like Skwisgar.

'No Crazy Chicks': Eight Red Flags I Learned from Online Dating

See also: Men who refer to women as "females."

The "im a nice guy, why do women only date jerks?" guy is the WORST. I have known a few guys like that, bitter and resentful and full of passive aggresvive insistance that the fact they dont get dates is TOTALLY everyone ELSES fault and NEVER theirs.

See also: Men who refer to women as "females."

I hate this so much.

not to pick at scabs, but that article is really kind of judgy and awful

that article was pretty bad. this one is particularly true though:

Men who list their preferred age range as anywhere from 15 to two years younger than themselves (i.e., the 38-year-old looking for women between the ages of 23 and 36).

i see this SO MUCH.

most of those things really are bad news but kind of obvious? i am guilty of the capitalization carnage (and i'm sure guilty of a bunch of other red flag to most people, such as excessive love of cats).

Men who list their preferred age range as anywhere from 15 to two years younger than themselves (i.e., the 38-year-old looking for women between the ages of 23 and 36).

Is this a sex thing?

The author of the article seemed rather eager to establish that she was only dabbling in online dating and looked upon the whole process from a lofty ironic distance.

She takes this controversial position: "Offline, women are socialized to Be Nice (or at least to be polite and respond to advances)."

in every online dating article ever:

i'm just doing this for purposes of JOURNALISM, guys, swear

not to pick at scabs, but that article is really kind of judgy and awful

She does disclose early on that she is a judgmental bitch.

apparently she lives in my zip code?

i'm a nice guy; i should ask her out

I saw that line about being a judgemental bitch early on in the article and I mentally inserted the unspoken "haha, you see what a good sport I am about it" after that sentence.

Men who list their preferred age range as anywhere from 15 to two years younger than themselves (i.e., the 38-year-old looking for women between the ages of 23 and 36).

Is this a sex thing?

I don't know what you mean by a sex thing? It says to me that they won't consider being partnered up w women their own age, all applicants must range from inappropriately young to "still enough younger than me not to be threatening/to make me look successful for catching a young one."

that's about what i meant. control? sex? somewhere in the nexus of disturbing.

Status, at the very least, and control issues also somewhere between possible and probable.

If I tell you my age bracket on OKC, as a 40 year old, was 27 to 42, is that as much of a problem? (curious)

(I'm not on there anymore fwiw, I find the whole thing pointless tbh)

It doesn't function the same way in reverse, because young men and the public control of their sexuality/fertility have not (generally? ever?) historically been status symbols for older women.

as long as the age bracket at least HAS your own age in it and doesn't dip under 21 it's usually fine.

yesterday i got a message from a 49 year old with an age range of 23-47...who then admitted to lying about his age in his profile (but you'd never guess because he's so youthful!) NOT fine.

that is really sad. like, the men feel they lack the {virility, stamina, chutzpah, what-have-you} to date women of their own age/stature so they look for romance among people they don't perceive as having the resources to know any better to date them. ugh, so unfortunate and also depressing-making.

Well thats true but there is also the problem that as we get to this age, the pool of available people of the same age is DRASTICALLY reduced. If you then also factor out anyone who has major baggage, or has kids from previous marriages, you're left with fuckall to work with, tbh.

Not that I'm at all defending men who go after young tail and continually do so all their lives, thats just crap.

like, the men feel they lack the {virility, stamina, chutzpah, what-have-you} to date women of their own age/stature so they look for romance among people they don't perceive as having the resources to know any better to date them.

This is a thing that makes me curious - i feel like there are two rival extreme positions on men who date significantly younger. On one end there's the idea of "has succeeded by landing a younger and therefore smoother-skinned/less fettered by responsibilities/more conventionally desirable gf". The other extreme is "isn't emotionally mature enough to value and sustain a relationship with a woman his own age". I sort of feel like one leans toward one position or the other and the two can't really coexist -- if you find yourself thinking less of one man for dating much younger it bleeds into your opinions of every other man you meet whose situation feels comparable.

the men feel they lack the {virility, stamina, chutzpah, what-have-you} to date women of their own age/stature so they look for romance among people they don't perceive as having the resources to know any better to date them.

This happens, but I think sometimes it's simpler than that: dudes have learned from society, media, wahtever, that a "good" girlfriend is a younger-than-you one, and they feel like that's their right, if they're going to have a gf, she's going to be a "good" one. So they codify this ideal with a reduced age-range.

like, the men feel they lack the {virility, stamina, chutzpah, what-have-you} to date women of their own age/stature so they look for romance among people they don't perceive as having the resources to know any better to date them.

Just want to add this consideration -- when I was 18, I was (generally speaking) sexually attracted to women in their early 20s; when I was 28, I was sexually attracted to women in their early 20s; when I was 38, I was sexually attracted to women in their early 20s; now I'm 48 and I'm sexually attracted to women in their early 20s. How fixed or movable should an erotic ideal be? Who I'm sexually attracted to is just not applicable anymore in the real world, but as a thought experiment...my erotic ideal is not going to get older along with me, no.

That said, if I were suddenly to find myself dating again, I'm smart enough to know that the sexual component is an ever-shrinking (hurr hurr) part of the equation that includes companionship, shared intellectual and cultural interests, etc. I'm sure a lot of guys in their 40s con themselves into thinking they have more to offer than they do.

my erotic ideal is not going to get older along with me, no.

This is what I don't understand. My erotic ideal has MOST CERTAINLY gotten older along with me, to the extent that trying to think erotically about much younger men now feels unpleasant, like perving on children or someone you're related to.

My relationship or romantic ideal has aged right along with me, just not my erotic/sexual ideal.

I might think a younger man is attractive in the same way I might find a woman beautiful or attractive, that is, in terms of hypothetical adherence to a set of standards.

I kind of am also in a smilar boat to you Rock. Like when I was 16-25 I was interested in and dating guys fair bit older than me (20-28), but as Ive aged, that 22-28 age range has stuck fast as "guys I notice most". Its weird. I also guess I dont feel confident enough to date a guy my own age who acts like an Actual Middle Aged man? I'm still watching cartoons and playing video games and seeing bands ffs.

so are a lot of Actual Middle Aged men!

and not just the shlubby ones, I'd wager.

my "erotic ideal" (looool) has definitely gotten older right along with me, but i suspect that it may stop doing so at some point

so are a lot of Actual Middle Aged men!

Where is man who aims etc.

As a total aromantic, I don't have a dog in this race, but there was this Hugo Schwyzer article (I can't remember if it was on the Good Men Project or Jezebel or both - oh wait it was Jezebel but he's written similar for GMP.

http://jezebel.com/5857933/insecurity-invisibility-and-the-reason-older-men-want-to-date-you

It's weird to me because the usual handwriting and comments thread always dwell on the whole "older men want younger women because: FERTILITY" evo-sike crap.

And don't really go that far into the whole presentation and representation issue: when you live in a culture where women over the age of 35 in pop culture are tidied off into sexless mumsy roles. And every single representation of Sexay Womens right across the board, in drama, in comedy, in porn - is about 22. I don't believe that pop culture and The Media create people's preferences from scratch. It's a complicated process whereby they feed one another, people become conditioned in all sorts of ways to associate certain qualities with sex because we are a pavlovian species when it comes to fetishes and attractions. Both of these things influence one another - media both describes and helps to shape our desires. And the most obvious visible sign of this is the change in the presentation of women's pubic hair - within *my* lifetime - so I do think that desires and expectations of female desirability can be shaped and/or changed.

I do wonder if more men would be capable of having an erotic ideal that aged with them if we saw more presentation of mature women as having an erotic presence (Charlotte Rampling, Helen Mirren, Marianne Faithfull spring to mind) - if this were the norm rather than the exception, could our erotic response to aging be changed in the same way as erotic response to pubic hair?

Apologies for barging into your thread, I am almost certainly RONG and clueless, so let the wooing continue.

Well, it would seem that the whole "porn" market is based on 'chasing the smart money', much like any other kind of marketing. So, 'single lads, disposable income' are the biggest market so they get all the 'girls' on display.

Then again, there's a lot of 'specialist' categorised mags that have "Over 60's" women in, for example. At first I thought it some weird fetish, and Wayne Rooney seemed to bear this out. But then, what of the lonely widower? He doesn't want some 22 year old that may well look like one of his grandkids, he's going to want someone that looks like his wife they way he remembers her, or similar.

I'm not in the market, so my 'research' is limited to 'what's on display on the rack' in passing (wife also being gorgeous, etc) but there they are, "30something women", "40something" etc.

Also, there's 'supply' issues, I'd wager: Older females have better things to do than 'continue' being in photos.

per the age difference thing i try not to be attracted to women young enough to be my daughter

this becomes more difficult as time marches on ;-)

i have a lunch date today, with someone i met at work a year ago or so, but haven't seen since (she works at another building several blocks away from me). challenge will be how to have lunch with someone in the middle of the work day, and i only know her from work, and not to talk about work too much (or at all). also, i've never been on a lunch date in the middle of a workday and ....aw gawd! *bites nails*

http://www.kintera.org/AccountTempFiles//account8790/images/ijl_logo.jpg

good lord,and ^that's^ exactly what i want to avoid. i'd much rather be hanging out somewhere after work. but since i hadn't seen her in so long, i felt the email out of nowhere combined with the "let's get dinner" would be too much, so i went for grabbing lunch instead.

*chomps*

haha

take it easy and you will be fine

Challenges are fun.

z s tomorrow at 7:15am: 'my lunch date just ended'

lol Z_S - well look at it this way, at least you (and her) have easy outs if the date goes off the rails

my recommendation: hand guns, lots of them, accompanied by sound effects and copious winking

zs, just have fun.

z s tomorrow at 7:15am: 'my lunch date just ended'

i would say that the date effectively ended at 12:10pm, when she used "my boyfriend" in the middle of a sentence.

:0

so glad i didn't bust out the copious winking prior to that, it could've had been embarrassing!

lol that's always such an awkward moment

I mean, to give and to receive. you have to insert it in a way that's not superfluous and making it obvious that you are trying to head things off at the pass. and as the receiver you have to react graciously and make it seem like 'hey, why'd you even mention that, that totally wasn't the reason I asked you out to lunch in the first place' (live CAT scan shows heart breaking, into pieces, and stomach literally dropping into the recesses around the balls of your feet)

Or a relief

xpost

i guess i should have made it more clear in the emails, but i couldn't figure out a way to say it that wasn't hilariously awkward.

but i don't know, if someone i barely knew emailed me out of nowhere after a year+ since seeing them, and invited me out to lunch alone (after only ever seeing them in large group situations) i'd assume it was a date.

?

oh well.

Or I'd find a way to mention my bf in an e-mail.

"Thursday? No, that won't work, my bf and I are going to get some Xmas shopping done together."

well maybe she agreed to it because she likes you and wants to keep the bridge built?

"Friday night? Nope sorry, that's when my girlfriend and I are going to have wild and crazy sex until we're both so exhausted that we fall asleep without showering"

hahahahahaha

well, there is the small possibility that she still wanted to pursue something despite of boyfriend, who is apparently studying in Bologna all year for his grad school program.

but yeah, i want no part of that obv

because she likes you and wants to keep the bridge built?

There has to be something; attraction, professional esteem, nice table manners

ZS, you don't think much of Bologna?

i'm sure it's a lovely place! never been. but having just been cheated on and summarily dumped, i definitely want no part in anything to do with inflicting that feeling on someone else.

lunch "date" did end up inviting me out to a happy hour next wednesday. i may be doing my hair that night. or having wild and crazy sex with someone until i'm so exhausted that i fall asleep with showering.

You could solve this dilemma by having sex in the shower, you know

or going and meeting the cute, available friends she has primed with stories of your awesomeness (xp)

heh, well remy's scenario sounds great, but only if she ever thought it was a date. i think it's more likely that early on she was like "well shit, he thinks this is a date but for me it's just networking"

NETWORKING or NOTWORKING

crucial Q

Or KNOTWORKING

NUTWORKING

NAUGHTWORKING

Wait wait wait the ex cheated on you and then had the audacity to be all accusatory about you moving on too quickly?

yes.

october 2011 was just a swell month all around

Is it just me, or is this new news? Idr this info either.

Yeah I think zs might have been too much of a gentleman to include that little detail earlier. Fyi I retract any sympathy I had for your ex.

i think i left it out, i dunno. now i wish this thread was de-indexed! definitely not trying to mudsling or anything

Well for the record, you left it out until it was so far in the past that you actually forgot you'd left it out, and that's saying something.

p sure this thread is already de-indexed?

also, some mud deserves to be slung

I'm sure a mod wouldn't mind de indexing this thread

Also: it is not mudslinging to admit that someone you love did something pretty awful and hurt you

Mookie otm

it's deindexed now.

So, wait fooled around on you and then dumped you and has the nerve to say you're mvoing on too fast? Were it I, I would thank her for helping me move on so fast and remind her that I couldn't possibly care less what she thought. Good day, Madam!

When you're with someone for as long as ZS and she were it's not always that black & white, or at least it doesn't always seem like it is.

In other words, having that attitude is often easier said than done at least ime.

Fair enough. I still think that after you dump someone, opining on their love life is probably not terribly wise.

yeah. i mean, i think part of the reason i didn't mention the cheating and all of that is i was still slightly in shock and denial. also, during the breakup night she seemed eager for me to agree that this was "mutual". and she sort of had a point - we had problems going back years that were seemingly unresolveable (not a word), and it's true that there were times in the months leading up to it where i had contemplated breaking up myself (though not cheating of course). so yes, i agreed that it was a mutual thing and because of that i kind of pushed the incident out of mind, water under the bridge and all of that.

the worst, though, was when she accused me of dating some girl and lying about it (this was the facebook image incident where i was in the background of a photo with an attractive girl and it ended up getting published in various places and she saw it), and refused to believe that i never dated the girl or kissed her or anything. in fact, i'm not sure that girl is into men or women or people in general, in terms of romants. but anyway, she refused to believe me, and instead left me a scathing series of text messages along the lines of "this is how you get me back, you fucker? you had to get even so you had to go out and etc etc etc"

Hmmm. OK, that's p nuts sounding.

and it's like, YOU CHEATED ON ME AND DUMPED ME, FOR REAL. I WAS IN A PHOTO WITH A PRETTY GIRL 2 WEEKS LATER AND THAT'S IT. WE ARE NOT IN A COMPETITION, BUT IF WE WERE, WE WOULD NOT BE EVEN.

True.

That sounds legitimately unhinged!

also, (last thing i'll say on this, promise) in searching for an ancient Skype password the other day in gmail, i accidentally ran into a string of emails from 3 years ago where she accused me of cheating on her while I was in India and Thailand for a 3-week trip for a class I was taking. totally false, of course, but it was so ironic to read through these dense paragraphs of accusations from the past knowing the end of the story.

she "refused to believe" you because she feels guilty (as well she should) and would like desperately for things to be "even" responsibility-wise

eff that noise tho

Is your ex prone to projection?

sounds like she has self-esteem issues. i'm reticent to accuse people of being "un-hinged" or "crazy" when they act like that in regards to an ex- or a current partner. i think it's contextual -- unhealthy relationships make people crazy. i don't think they are inherently crazy.

everyone is, surely!

</projection> xp

she "refused to believe" you because she feels guilty (as well she should) and would like desperately for things to be "even" responsibility-wise

yeah, i was talking to a friend as the angry text messages were rolling in, and he basically made the same case. convincingly.

Is your ex prone to projection?

that's a good question. i had never really noticed it in her before. this was kind of an extreme situation, emotionally, for both of us. it think it drew things out of her that weren't normally evident.

Sarahel otm. I specifically said "nuts" instead of "crazy" even though it's the same thing because of that reason. I'm pretty sure most have us have done things that could be considered "crazy" because of a relationship at one point or another. Emotions/relationships are hard and people are complicated. I get pretty annoyed when people draw hard lines in issues of romance/partnerships about things that are really subjective, complicated, and relationship-specific. For the record, I am not excusing her or anyone's actions nor am I saying ZS doesn't have a right to be angry about this. It just irks me how quick ppl are to pass p harsh and swift judgement on ppl even when I realize that they're probably doing so to be supportive of their friend.

I also realize "nuts" isn't any better but I couldn't think of any other word in that moment and it seemed a better choice than "crazy" somehow.

quick ppl are to pass p harsh and swift judgement on ppl

If anything I am projecting, myself.

cashews

It just irks me how quick ppl are to pass p harsh and swift judgement on ppl even when I realize that they're probably doing so to be supportive of their friend.

totally - and i feel like the key thing to focus on is the motivation for the judgment - that people are trying to be supportive.

Oh M, I didn't mean you! I was just meant generally speaking and was mostly thinking out loud. I should have just said OTM and left it at that.

No - I think you elaborated really well!

how quick ppl are to pass p harsh and swift judgement on ppl

wish we could sb them too

lol

I'm not a hanging judge and I fancy myself pretty circumspect, I just thought that what with ZS being newly back in the game, she should probably leave him be for awhile and not make it about her. PPl fail, ppl cheat, shit happens and I'm not privy to the dets enough to offer much more than sympathy but telling your ex they're moving on too fast speaks to a massive and unwelcome ego imo.

I dunno if I don't disagree with you, E.

Yeah, in a relationship things aren't black-and-white for those ivolvec and at the end of (or throughout) a relationship you're not gonna be in a place where you judge- or want to judge- your partner's behaviour. Most ppl have been there and understand that, the scaled eyes and the whatnot.

But, from the neutral (or ZS-friendly, indeed) perspective I think it's fair to say 'nah that's bullshit behaviour' when there is clearly bullshit behaviour, y'know?

i lost my sought-for jerry springer tone at the end there somewhat

Darragh, I don't think you were actually disagreeing with me at all. I guess I just have to remind myself that ppl are looking out for the person involved and that's what matters most despite the fact that there are often reasons and complications for the bullshit behavior of the other person involved that might not be considered.

maybe i wasnt but i was judging u anyway

I am very mean & judgemental tbf

I don't think there is much gray in the cheating dept: did you sleep with someone else? Did you have an agreement with your partner to be monogamous? If you answer yes to both those questions, then you cheated, you betrayed your partner. All the context in the world won't change those facts, including but not limited to: I was drunk; we were going through a rough patch, we were ” practically” broken up, we ” eventually” broke up anyway, my partner is a terrible person, my partner doesn't treat me right.

I might feel more compassion for the cheater in some contexts over others, but probably only if the cheater is my friend.

I wasn't really talking about that in particular tbh and wouldn't necessarily agree with what you said there either.

lol I meant disagree, not agree

goddamn it e stand yr ground and FIGHT US

I don't want to fight! You didn't say anything diff than what I said, really. I guess I just like to look at the big picture and realize that people are imperfect and sometimes do shitty things and while that sucks it doesn't necessarily make them a bad person.

I'm too tired to fight anyway and I've got dinner to make.

But I guess if the person on the receiving end of the shitty behavior is a friend it's often hard to do that esp if you don't know the other person at all.

Emotions/relationships are hard and people are complicated. I get pretty annoyed when people draw hard lines in issues of romance/partnerships about things that are really subjective, complicated, and relationship-specific. For the record, I am not excusing her or anyone's actions nor am I saying ZS doesn't have a right to be angry about this. It just irks me how quick ppl are to pass p harsh and swift judgement on ppl even when I realize that they're probably doing so to be supportive of their friend.

this is otm
I kinda think this tendency is exemplified at its apex, can run wild, when these conversations happen online?, also; like a few of the things about it - how limited the information you're getting is, that it comes in one voice, that it's something you receive alone, that you don't even have, really, vicarious access to the antagonist's POV, etc - I can understand why it leaves so little room for rebuttal, or leads so clearly to one point of view, how dare they, or w/e. & that isn't bad, because I think the thing it elicits is maybe "I feel for you for feeling that way about it", & so we're sympathetic. but I get discomforted by the idea that anyone involved would feel they had a clear picture & felt confident about what had happened. relationships are the actual most complicated thing I think, I p much can't talk about them irl because I think you need ten thousand hours of conversation about the macro level dynamics involved before you can even get a sense of where anyone was coming from. in relationships you talk to someone for hours at night w/the lights off; trying to relay things that have happened w/soneone you were so profoundly entwined w/ can't easily be done w/others imo.

but also yeah i don't think you're disagreeing, & none of this precludes the kinda broadbrush "someone cheated on you" "that's p bad" exchanges itt

Thanks Schlump. That was v well put imo.

think whatever the corrected version of yr:

I wasn't really talking about that in particular tbh and wouldn't necessarily agree with what you said there either.

post was otm, also, it being something i eventually kinda understood at least the complexity of, having previously been p binary about it all. that there's context doesn't diminish someone def having done wrong, or doesn't necessarily edge anything closer to being more inevitable or more forgiveable, etc, it just sometimes is a thing that helps you understand why someone did the thing they shouldn't have

ehh, I'm gonna take a page from Mr. DJP's book and just flat out say that I genuinely believe a lot of (most of) people are actually a bonkers level of crazy and barely holding their shit together. maybe it's only by living with people for an extended period of time that you get to see the cracks well enough to know of the slobbering horror lying beneath, and also reveal your own seeping pits-of-hell insanity to somebody else. and once that revelation has happened, or happens in a hazy, smouldering always at the periphery of your vision way – once you've seen + revealed the skinless, raw, and pitiful aspects of all the parties in your own relationship - only then can you determine how well the standard rules of engagement w/r/t relationships apply to you.

Both otm imo.

but... but... but I want life to be simple

Yeah well then, you're fuck. Sorry, man.

I don't think there is much gray in the cheating dept: did you sleep with someone else?

i would say this is pretty gray indeed!

what if you kissed someone else, what if you harbored lustful thoughts in your heart, etc. that line is going to be different for ppl in different relationships.

naaaaaaaaaah

^

I'm stranding betwween a v young lady and a much older man, q who derm to know each other by sight only. Guy just introduced himself a nd it's proceeding to hit on her

Standing
although I do feel stranded

Exhibit #1:

http://willblogforfood.typepad.com/will_blog_for_food/images/lewinskydress.jpg

mookie otm

lol - where is this happening, Justine?

wtf is that, R?

i mean the line might change but rarely that much and the fact of an event is a fairly definable boundary

Oh on the train!

I mean he's kinda handsome but clearly sleazy

She had a test -organic chem - to get to so she declined his offer to get a coffee

I don't think I could ever approach a complete stranger and hit on her

that is the infamous blue dress that monica lewinsky wore when she was not having sexual relations w. billy

that's a good look for some dudes tbf

The definition of "cheating" might be reasonably clear, but the consequences or how diff ppl deal with it is completely all over the map. Some ppl will go "thats it no excuses, no 2nd gos, fuck u". Some forgive, work thru it. Some, if itwas just a kiss might even laugh it off.

I don't think I could ever approach a complete stranger and hit on her

― The Love Song of L. Alfred Sotosyn (dayo), Thursday, December 8, 2011 12:34 AM (1 minute ago)

This is true, and something I always end up wondering about w/ the "men are conditioned to do this..." thing I read about on some other threads. When I was single, the primary fear of approaching somebody I found interesting/attractive, and a secondary (but no less potent) fear of coming across as creepy or douchey or domineering made it practically impossible to meet potential dates unless they were friend-circled first.

yep

When I was about 22 a guy asked me for a light and then after a few minutes of chit chat he asked if I wanted to go see his friend's band. I had recently resolved to be more spontaneous so I went. We had fun and wound up kissing goodnight at the train station. The next day I found out he was still in HS. I was p horrified but respected the hell out of his courage tbh.

drunk is difft!

Just thinking about the sort of nerve it must take to ask a total stranger out like that dude on the train or my HS boyfriend of one night. lol.

Oh that guy wasn't drunk. It was like 4 in the afternoon and we were on a street corner when we met.

remy otm - the second factor not wanting to come across as creepy or douchey is a strong influence

statutory makeout xps

you're arrested...for the crime of being fine

I feel like maybe the best way to meet new girls at this point in my life is to buy a leather jacket and wayfarers and stand on a street corner and smoke

hmm

he told all his friends he kissed a grownup imo

lol tbf he was 18 and not 15 or something

We were friends after that for a couple years but in a sibling sorta way. He did say that my studio apartment was so "adult punk rock". Oh Alex.

wow this thread blew up.

ZS if you haven't had it already i think you are due for a massive bender that involves smashing beer bottles at some point (preferably against some rocks/not on people). you deserve to be angrier!

(i always offer to go down to the docks and chuck rocks into the water with heartbroken friends. that helps too and is slightly less destructive.)

awwww

throw beer bottles at sailors, win win

i don't think it'll ever be in me to have a rigid morality of relationships, not that i'm criticising you guys that do but it's been a unpredictable sea of grey to me for most of my adult life

i don't think it'll ever be in me to have a rigid morality of relationships

not in a global sense, sure, but I think it's vitally important w/in your actual relationship to know what, for you (& partner(s)) is absolutely okay and absolutely not

not universal rules, tbh, just on a relationship by relationship basis ito 'here's how this'll work for us' iykwim

hmmm i am perhaps not best placed to talk about this right now, and i guess i'm musing out loud. and yeah honesty is important sure but

i dunno how to explain...perhaps to say that the worst thing a partner cd do to me wd be a long way from a sexual infidelity...and that something about "no grey areas" always makes me antsy?

not willing that as a universal law or anything. contracts weird me out a bit i think.

like i shd probly get to the bottom of this unsettlement at some time in my life ho ho

http://designyoutrust.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/romanticintent2.jpg

yeah this. "cheating" feels like an odd word seeing as it is mostly game related and then the whole "where is this relationship going?" 5-year plan stuff. all odd legalistic things - at least linguistically - that rub up wrong against some kind of "free meeting of hearts and minds" crap in my head. i think i might equate rules with death somehow tho

i mean that form is a joke but it has some kind of truth about the potential for commodification of relationships (broadest sense) in it

perfectly aware that these are not popular or possibly sensible concerns here

Where do you see yourself in 5 years?

those kind of questions, generally, are odd to me i think. and sort of presumptuous and sort of grave-tempting and sort of mildly saddening

tbh i feel the same about "what do you want for your tea tonight?" too

i don't think those ideas are as uncommon as you're painting, julie, tho i've seen you express the gist of them before and maybe they're more front and centre for you i dunno. But the idea/worry that 'let's not tie our future selves down' isn't unique in itself

tho many ppl offset those concerns against desperation and fear of dying alone/a virgin y'know the usual stuff

yeah but it's something slightly other than that. lots of people of course don't want to "settle" but it isn't an endless shopping spree i'm entertaining here, nor really a beatnik "don't change me". which is why i'm no good at putting this into words really, these are feelings in my gut or my head or both. quite possibly some kind of super-solipsism, but it's easy to write off other's experiences (and yr own) in that way.

realism says that so much of the language of our relationships is socio-economic because that's the world we inhabit and that's okay because you can't not inhabit that world but something else that people sometimes vaguely suggest or guess at wants love - or whatever - to be some moment outside of moments? outside of the whole sordid business of being entities within a historical, social moment - or the opposite, maybe - to be so wired into the world that social structures shatter or evaporate, temporarily, somehow

tbrr a good part of our aversion (not strong, tbh) to getting married is a kind of 'things change ppl change and forever is a mighty long time for two ppl to be throwing expensive promises at', which may or may not be a similar type of sentiment? But it comes, i kinda hope on my good days, from a place of trust in each other that doesn't feel the need to lock anything down 'while it's going well'. I realise these may not, as you say, be the normal angles of approach.

xp crushing the butterfly under the cartwheel, kind of thing? I kinda see it, but don't want to presume to really get where you're at either.

think overthinking is a bad idea in a lot of scenarios tbh, and silence is undervalued which is rich coming from an internet gobshite

i am increasingly incapable of really feeling judgements about behaviour tho, except a sadness or slightly frightened empathy. i keep asking myself what does approval or disapproval do?

this isn't especially autobiographical re: recent events btw, or very very tangentially if so

can say with some measure of certainty that the odds of me meeting a co-ghost at some point in the future look fucken slim tho :)

oh yeah, i don't *feel* judgement except in terms of its delicious internal effect on myself, which tbf is all any of us can vouch for ito emotion anyway right

lol i dunno what was in those bath salts but it's good stuff

lol

i like the idea of a delicious internal effect. actually sometimes judgement feels pleasant when there's a group of you in agreement round a bar that something is a terrible thing

Well, I'm not a moral relativist in much of anything – least of all a relationship - but I do believe that there are situational considerations that might exempt certain activities from scrutiny, provided both parties were consenting adults.

who are you tellin i'm irish ffs

xp to nv that is

communal negative judgement is a basic social bedrock but that may be another thread

2012 GOP Presidential Campaign -- "This individual's going to accuse me of an affair for an extended period of time."

i'm not really a relativist i think i'm an abolitionist at this stage.

i think one time i signed up for a set of ideas that seemed rational and necessary and realistic but i think maybe they won't work for me so now i'll have to inhabit some strange near-vacuum elsewhere and see how that works out

yeah a lot of the evolutionary psychology guys are big on the idea of morality as group protection mechanism. feel like it cheapens morality and cavemen tbh

i feel evo psych people cheapen science, and i condemn them and judge them negatively

can i get a whut whut

well sure, we all *like* to think we're above our hard-wiring.......

just realised i'm quite comfortable judging the student cunts next door who couldn't give a fuck about anybody living nearby who might have jobs or sleeping children or just not enjoy the sound of bellowing twats at 3 in the morning

hooray for sparks of humanity

within our own personal boundaries we're all nimby tory landowners

nah it's the inconsiderateness that rankles tbh, i can sleep thru owt

but to avoid derailing, i think partly what i was thinking in the first place was as banal as "i would be very uncomfortable judging what goes on between other people with the obvious exception of abuse etc."

either that or my brain is ready to go lie down

i find that going over and politely but firmly executing them the first night is the best policy

have toyed with petrol thru letterbox but this is a poor tactic when you live in a terrace

re judging- it's mathematical though, the importance of yr opinion/judgementalism is inversely proportional to yr distance from the matter- so why bother moderating it, as long as it's irrelevant (and more often than not internal, as we said)

yeah we made that very joke about my neighbours last year on some thread re:firing them out

for me, the point isn't that a person changes or boundaries or whatever - it's just honesty and ... plain old courtesy, i guess? like, you might commit to a monogamous relationship w/someone and then meet someone you want to pursue in some way etc., the black/white for me is that you would talk to your partner first, have some kind of honest discussion, not just go off and do whatever you feel like doing.

that's plain enough!

But the dishonesty is in committing in the first place, then, iykwim?

ZS if you haven't had it already i think you are due for a massive bender

i've been on three-fifth of a bender for the past week or so (2 weeks?), staying up til 3am every night drinking by myself, miraculously slogging my way through work the next day, doing a shitty job at everything, enduring loud and revolting stomach cacophonies. i probably need to just go ahead and step shit up all the way, hit rock bottom and bounce back up extra hard.

also, and here's where a bunch of you will probably vehemently disagree with me, but all my ex did was kiss a dude. she apparently flirted with him all night at a party and then had a big kiss outside, probably while robins and butterflies flew around their heads whistling love songs and forming hearts and shit. in the bounds of our relationship of 7+ years, this definitely constituted "cheating". and for sure, if i ever would have flirted with a girl all night at a party, let alone kissed her or got it on as "all night long" blasted on the speakers, i seriously think she would have responded violently and probably broken my nose or something. but yeah, i'm sure to others the fact that she kissed someone wouldn't be a big deal.

was there tongue?

like was it _frenching_ ?

i guess the gray area for you is the amount of tongue action!

i don't know. i wasn't there. it happened in NYC (i live in DC) at a party i was conspicuously not invited to attend

was it as probing as a sarahel volley of questions?

lol,yeah. it was a kiss,the amount of tongue is irrelevant.

lol - i forget where the "frenching" joke came from - i just remember it being hilarious on some other thread.

:)

but yeah, i'm sure to others the fact that she kissed someone wouldn't be a big deal.

When my most recent ex and I had a falling out that led to our breakup this is exactly what he did as well - made out with some chick who he'd been hanging out with/talking to a lot more than I'd been comfy with (and I am NOT a jealous person). I'm not gonna lie - I was fucking PISSED and upset but I didnt dump him for it, I tried to get him not to let it lead him further away from me :(

... didnt work.

I have to admit I don't get the "kissing is cheating" thing. Really, my gf could smooch whoever she wants and it wouldn't bother me at all. If anything, it offers a chance to show I'm not jealous or insecure abour our relationship.

I've never got the jealousy thing, myself, but I've never been cheated on so my perspective is a little warped.

yeah Z i can completely understand your being hurt and feeling badly used and feeling that you can't be with somebody who does that to you. last night i was just pondering that zone in me that isn't there, and it's been a source of contention with people who i've been involved with in the past, feeling slighted that i wasn't jealous enough or something

I may well be the least jealous person walking the planet. If I'm away for the weekend and my gf told me she wants to chill with another guy for the night, even a guy I know she's been crushing out on, I'd tell her "go ahead, and have a great time!". And I'd mean it. It can feel scary at first, but there's something very powerful about sending out such an unambiguous signal that I'm so completely secure in the strength of our relationship that I'm not even slightly afraid she'll leave me for someone else.

lj has two logins?

i've had the whole "you're not jealous enough" thing, not expressly said but it was there, however i wouldn't want a gf kissing someone else, not at all! it's not about not being jealous, it's just...why?

I'm not lj, just an incredible simulation

"He's not lj, he's a very naughty boy!"

also, and here's where a bunch of you will probably vehemently disagree with me....

...this definitely constituted "cheating".

You don't need to justify this - "the bunch of you" don't get to define what constitutes cheating in your relationship anymore than a bunch of people with no coats on get to define whether I'm feeling cold or not

i'm glad someone picked him up on that, absolutely otm

april otm

> "the bunch of you" don't get to define what constitutes cheating in your relationship anymore than a bunch of people with no coats on get to define whether I'm feeling cold or not

My last few posts notwithstanding, I agree with this too. One of the great things about being a couple is that you make your own rules as to what is or isn't acceptable to the two of you. I'm well aware I fall near the extreme end of the leniency spectrum here.

lol
i love that dion quote, when asked about his marriage or something he loved about his wife: "she has an incredibly high tolerance for unacceptable behaviour"

celine's husband?

No, although he must have an incredibly high tolerance for unacceptable singing....

celine dion's husband, dion

dion dion?

who can forget the chorus of dion's first million selling single

dion dion?
Jilted John
and Marsha!
MarkG~
oo la
showaddywaddy

i've noticed a trend among my aging friends who have been in relationships for awhile toward "opening up" relationships or exploring other kinds of arrangements and i wonder if this works. like if the concept of cheating becomes acceptable when it's demystified and in the open. i've never actually been in a relationship like this so i have no idea how it would work for me, but i have been able to, say, date someone casually who was also dating other people casually and not be bothered or jealous as long as they were upfront about it. it's always been the deception that irked me most, and not the sex itself.

and i've also seen friends with those types of arrangements have their relationships torn apart when their is an infidelity outside of the rules that have been set up, which suggests the same thing.

i wonder if good relationships are just as simple as having perfect open communication.

Because communication is so simple and easy ;-)

"as simple as"

dammit xpost!

lol

why can't it be easy though? or at least, shouldn't people really be looking for someone they can communicate with easily? obviously it's not easy with everyone.

They probably should.

i feel like it is v difficult to communicate honestly even with yourself, though!

it's pretty easy to tell yourself you're not doing something wrong when you actually are, and would recognise it if you wanted to see it.

What people think they want, and what they actually want are often quite different - and its sometimes only an event or occurrence that exposes the discrepancy between the two

i have a lot of friends who have started open relationships and ended with separating. i know that it is not a universal, but in my observed experience "open relationships" are always a code for one person wanting permission from the other to do cheating, and the other person agreeing to a theoretical possibility